For those who don’t have the map file it is available here

or get the map & the mapfile here

When I start a new map the first thing I do is build a layout of the floor plan of the map using simple brushwork

at this point I also place the main items for the map and play it in q3 just to see if the dimensions of the map feel right. If you look at that image and compare to the final map file you will see that most of the final map layout is in place at this early stage.

I will then start to construct the map replacing the brushes I laid as a guide as I go. I can’t give a step by step guide to the whole construction of the map as I didn’t keep all of the files but I will highlight some of the map and explain what is going on.

Structure & Detail

Shows just the structural brushes on the map. The highlighted brushes are more complex than the hull needs to be but are in place to stop light leaks.

Shows both structure and detail. Notice that the caulk hull overlaps as much of the detail work as is possible while keeping the hull simple

Shows just detail. All brushwork on the map that isn’t caulk hull is made into detail.

Avoiding Overdraw & Z-Fighting

I always try to avoid textured brushes passing behind other brushwork. This stops a lot of ugly z-fighting in 16bit mode (just take a look at RTCW to see how bad that can look!) and also reduces overdraw and so makes the map run faster.

Rather than have the jump pad as 1 square brush I used 1 brush and 2 patches.

This shot taken with caulk filtered shows some metalwork. In order to build without overdraw there are a number of overlapping brushes in there.

as turning the caulk filter off indicates.

highlights the brushes used to construct the beam

exploded view of the brushes. Brush A provides the top face. Brush B provides the bottom face and brushes C provide the 3 side faces. If 1 brush had been used there would have been overdraw behind the crossbeams and probably z-fighting.

Player Clip, Weapon Clip & Bot Clip

When I clip the map the first thing I do is clip for humans.

A: triangular clips to smooth the players way
B: weapon clip on models to give a more realistic weapon impact
C: Large clip brushes placed to stop the spectator seeing HOM or just placed so they can fly around without hitting roof beams etc.

This shows use of Botclip

A: brushes placed to simplify geometry for bots
B: large brushes placed over multiple detail brushes to optimise AAS calculations. I could have used playerclip for this job but I use botclip as I like to be able to filter out everything I place for the bots and just look at the clipping I place for humans.

as this shot shows when viewed from the outside the whole map is simplified with clipping to optimise for bots. The result was an aas file of just 369K. Also as all the clipping extends back until it hits the hull there are no ‘phantom’ clusters and we end up with the following reachability numbers

cluster 1 has 130 reachability areas
cluster 2 has 151 reachability areas
cluster 3 has 120 reachability areas
cluster 4 has 83 reachability areas
cluster 5 has 87 reachability areas
571 total reachability areas

Not bad I’m sure you will agree.

Hints

Finally, hints. At first glance the hinting in the map is quite complex looking

that shows all of the hints.

But if you take each group of hints individually they all do a specific job. Mostly reducing r_speeds in the main areas. I put hints that work together into func_groups to make it easier to see what is going on.

I’ll take 2 of the hints and quickly explain what they do.

This is the tunnels by the quad courtyard.

that single hint stops the lower part of the tunnels (A) being viewed while standing in the courtyard (B)

This group of 4 hints does a lot of work in the main room of the map.

I used this example I another thread as well but it quite a good 1. It shows how I maximised the vis blocking potential of that corner by using it as a pivot and creating a lot of new leafs. In the top image with no hints all brushes in leaf B get rendered while facing them from within Leaf A but with the addition of the 4 hints I create 8 new leafs and have a lot of vis blocking. For exmaple from within leaf B all brushes entirely within leafs H, I & J are not rendered. The only leafs that receive no benefit are E&F.;

I haven’t given full explanations of how hinting works here if you want that maybe this thread http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/019324.html? is a good place to start

I haven’t covered everything in the map either. If anyone wants anything else explaining just ask.

Q

Edit: I'm basicly useless

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Originally posted by wviperw: very nice Q. Unfortunately the images stop loading after awhile so they are only half there. Must be my dial-up connection.

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It wont help. I'm on 64K and it takes a while. Seems to be a problem with using the lycos free space. The images get redownloaded everytime I look at the thread rather than staying in memory. All excpet the last 1 (that 1 is on 1 of my sites) I might have to move all the images over to there and change all the links. Groan.

posted 02-15-2002 07:32 PM          

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~GAEL

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Originally posted by Gaelrond: After reading through this, I have come to realize something: I know very very little about mapping efficiently. (read: I suck at mapping!) Thanks Q, very nicely done, quite informative. Methinks I should leave the mapping to people who know what they are doing.

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Nah dont do that. For 1 thing many of us who know what we are doing are moving on to other games and for anoter we were all hopeless at 1 time. I was a useless newb a year ago

posted 02-15-2002 09:01 PM           

2nd, other games? aww i feel so behind the time. i keep hearing talk of quake4 and that it would use the q3 engine. is there any truth to this? i hate to learn all this then have no use for it. (im specifically recall id saying no more quakes after #3. course, then TA came out, but its like the same thing.)

anyway, thx for propelling me into this stuff more

This map is fuckin' cool...one of the best maps I've ever seen. I haven't looked at the .map file yet, I will later though. Even with ID stock textures...damn Quakin' (that is you right? ) awesome job man!

posted 02-16-2002 05:22 AM           

One thing I wonder Quakin', is what you were like as a 'useless newbie,' I can't quite picture it!

I was wondering why you put so many botclips in the map but now I know. One problem with actually viewing the .map file is there is no botclip filter in q3r 202

Hopefully with that I'll reduce my botfile from 6mb to 3mb...
But with you, how do you do that? That map is quite complicated...and a 379kb aas! That is amazing!

Hinting - cool. *Looks like to me that you've tried to control most of the leafs(can you tell me if it is better to do that than just sticking a few hints here and there?)...interesting because I just thought you stick a few in where they could block visibility from another place....* Or maybe you don't understand that because of my crappy explanation...

Gaelrond ~ just keep going. I think it's a cycle, mapping. People like Castle and GONNAKILLYA(aka really good mappers) go into mapping jobs after they make some good maps and all...
And Quakin' is one of those guys too I'm sure when a convenient mapping job comes for him, he'll get it.
So while they're all out getting employed and all, the rest are working hard trying to get better.
While I wouldn't consider myself a useless newbie, I am only half way there in terms of being a good mapper...
There remain things I'm not good at, as I have no desire to be good at them...like for instance I know Quakin' and if he can save 2 triangles by building a different way, he'll do it. While I still care about construction, and have sat not releasing any work for a while learning about points made by Quakin' and others about basic efficient construction, I still prefer making rooms that look nice...
What I'm saying is you'll get better with persistence...I know I have.

Oh well that's my 2 euros...

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Originally posted by ajerara: Quakin, why does the caulk hull overlap as much detail work as possible?

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I expect Bob could give you a realy good reason (he told me to do it that way and that is good enough for me normaly ) The obvious thing is that having the hull as snug as posible helps with vis blocking.

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Originally posted by Aramique: One thing I wonder Quakin', is what you were like as a 'useless newbie,' I can't quite picture it!

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Well I put out a map full of sparklies, z-fighting & overdraw that had r_speeds that peeked at 30K and fps that dropped to the floor and still thought it was a good map! I was clueless LOL

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Originally posted by Aramique: I was wondering why you put so many botclips in the map but now I know. One problem with actually viewing the .map file is there is no botclip filter in q3r 202

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There is no botclip filter on GTK either. I select a botclip face, do shift A to select all of the botclip then press H to hide it all.

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Originally posted by Aramique: But with you, how do you do that? That map is quite complicated...and a 379kb aas! That is amazing!

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Everything is simplified. All multiple brush work on floors and walls etc is reduced to simple clip brushes. Steps are ramps. Curves are triangles. Complicated brushwork like the suports for the platforms and bridge are covered in single brushes. Everything is reduced to the smallest possible number of faces. Thats how

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Originally posted by Aramique: Hinting - cool. *Looks like to me that you've tried to control most of the leafs(can you tell me if it is better to do that than just sticking a few hints here and there?)...interesting because I just thought you stick a few in where they could block visibility from another place.

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Most of those hints just reduce the tris in the main areas. I think I knocked the average r_speeds down in the main room by about 1K with hinting. The layout of the map seperates the areas quite effectivly. The hints are just a bonus realy. When most people play a map they just want the fps to be as high as possible all the time. There is realy very little point in hinting areas that already have good fps/r_speeds. I just did out of habit The maps layout should do most of the work with hints just helping it along.

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Originally posted by Aramique: if he can save 2 triangles by building a different way, he'll do it

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True, but I will also put an extra 10 in if it will avoid the damn overdraw & z-fighting

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Originally posted by Aramique: I still prefer making rooms that look nice...

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Are you saying my map doesn't look nice??? LOL

Seriously you can have both. Just takes a little effort

Well, I've been playing the map a bit more, and it's definitely a keeper......let's have more maps in the "Classic Quake Gothic" style!

( Starts preliminary brushwork on "Gormenghast"...which will be at least 25,000 brushes ... )

RRROOOAAARRR

FilePlanet: a load of old dingo's kidneys!

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My maps:
God of Emptiness
Prayer Of Hatred CTF

Shows how I used them to change the item makers when the items were changed for TDM/FFA

Just use the same notteam or notfree flag for the static as you do for the item.

BTW I noticed that the brushwork in those statics could have been better. Tut Tut. Also spotted a misaligned texture on the map while I was playing around taking those 2 screens. Ah well, no map is perfect afterall!

Q

posted 02-17-2002 04:11 AM           

Oh yeah, can you maybe explain how you did that patch arch with the wood and metal that goes diagonally down? I don't know how you would have done that...

posted 02-17-2002 06:56 AM          

I appreciated this topic. An HTML version would be helpful for other mappers on future. I'm not a debutant or a professional in mapping. I would put myself as an intermediate level mapper. I think that when we like mapping we become perfectionnist with time. Since many month that I read and analyse topics, this one is the one that I appreciated the most. I've learn a lot from it and what you accomplished is an example for a lot of people.

Thanks for sharing!

quote:

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Steps are ramps

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is this for bots (botclip), or everybody (clip)?
Also, is there any noticeable difference between stairs & ramp when playing? can u tell that there is a ramp under you?

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Originally posted by *HeFFalump: 1 question, Quakin: is this for bots (botclip), or everybody (clip)? Also, is there any noticeable difference between stairs & ramp when playing? can u tell that there is a ramp under you? once again, thx for the explanation. you're helpin a lot of people

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Mostly for bots. I always clip steps into ramps for bots to simplify the map for them. It is very hard to see any differnece when wathing them use the steps.

On this map I did use playerclip to make ramps on some of te steps. It is just about noticable in play that you are on a smooth ramp and not steps but most people will never notice. I did it on the steps in the tunnels. The reason is that the wall is 64 units high with a curving roof directly above. A player walking/running along the walls & up the steps could get stuck on the roof as the step pushed him up. So I used clip to stop that.

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Originally posted by BerneyBoy: Hi Q, I appreciated this topic. An HTML version would be helpful for other mappers on future. I'm not a debutant or a professional in mapping. I would put myself as an intermediate level mapper. I think that when we like mapping we become perfectionnist with time. Since many month that I read and analyse topics, this one is the one that I appreciated the most. I've learn a lot from it and what you accomplished is an example for a lot of people. Thanks for sharing! BerneyBoy

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Your welcome

As for the HTML I'm a clueless newb! So that will have to wait untill I figure it all out.

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Originally posted by Aramique: Quakin, here's one thing I've always thought. How do you find mapping fun as you go really really far as far as efficiency is concerned. Things that I (I can't speak for others though, but I don't think most, spare maybe djbob and a couple others, would do things like rebuild somethig to save a couple tris) would normally ignore, you do it. You practically rebuild the map in botclip to make the aas smaller,(though botclipping for bot performance I'd do) and you even put weapon clip around models... The thing is, I doubt most newbies to average casual mappers would want to go as far as you, because the way you build is the pinnacle of efficiency. If I was a newbie looking at this topic now, I'd be like, "Woah...I'd never have thought it involves this much stuff..." E 0.02 Oh yeah, can you maybe explain how you did that patch arch with the wood and metal that goes diagonally down? I don't know how you would have done that...

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It isn't normaly a question of rebuilding (though I did rebuild sections of this map to improve it (I had picked up some stupid ideas on bruswork and patches on here for a start and had to rebuild because of that!) Its normaly a question of building it properly the first time. If you build well you can build fast. I did make a few mistakes on this (some of them are still there!) mostly because I was tired. I did this map in a hurry (2 weeks!) so errors slipped in. Good thing bob was about to spot most of them. Most of the errors still in were spotted by bob but I forgot to fix them. Duh again.

On the botclip. A smaller aas is desirable. Takes less space in the pk3 (very good for auto downloads off servers) Also it takes less space in memory and runs better. The bots will play the whole map with no botroams.

I'll post something on those patches in a little while. Need to go take some pics and upload.

Q

posted 02-17-2002 04:38 PM          

Quakin' look your email, now.

posted 02-18-2002 06:00 AM           

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Originally posted by Quakin': On this map I did use playerclip to make ramps on some of te steps. It is just about noticable in play that you are on a smooth ramp and not steps but most people will never notice. I did it on the steps in the tunnels

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This was the first thing I noticed while running around the map. To me it makes a big difference and I much prefer having proper steps rather than ramps. The physics is significantly different especially when jumping off the top step.

For a really bad example try ospdm1 (edge remake) and try jumping onto the ledge to the left of the top of the stairs coming from the rail to the MH. You can't while coming up the stairs; you have to stop first

Except for that minor niggle, this is a seriously useful map. I think I might need to do some re-building

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Originally posted by RainPsalm: This was the first thing I noticed while running around the map. To me it makes a big difference and I much prefer having proper steps rather than ramps. The physics is significantly different especially when jumping off the top step. For a really bad example try ospdm1 (edge remake) and try jumping onto the ledge to the left of the top of the stairs coming from the rail to the MH. You can't while coming up the stairs; you have to stop first Except for that minor niggle, this is a seriously useful map. I think I might need to do some re-building Thanks!

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I dont like using ramps for players but on those steps it was either that or force the player away from the walls with clip. I think that would have been even more noticable. Seems only about 5% of players notice and as the steps are enclosed and you cant jump off them sideways anyway it's not too much of an issue I dont think.

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Originally posted by SpletteR: this has to be the single best mapping thread that I have read so far. Thanks so much quakin for your samplemap and the explanations contained herein this really explaines how to do things and how to do them well a must read for every noob (for the PRACTICAL noobs like me at least)

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Your welcome.

Any more requests for explinations before I forget about this map?

posted 02-19-2002 04:50 AM          

Also If I were to build a cave, would u still try to keep ur structual brush faces flush with the detail brush faces. Or would u just make a simple structural hull behind the more complicated detail brushes that would make the cavern interior. which leads me to another question, do u just create the level once, clone it when its done, caulk the cloned level, make it structural and simplify it and then position it agin so u have ur structural hull, or do u really create everything twice??

Also on that explosion pic of the beam structure: if u were to have a pillar under the big hor. beam, would u make some more caulked detail brushes (1 textured side down) like the "C" brushes then, that u would overlap just like "A" and "C"

posted 02-19-2002 06:01 AM           

quote:

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Originally posted by Quakin': I dont like using ramps for players but on those steps it was either that or force the player away from the walls with clip. I think that would have been even more noticable. Seems only about 5% of players notice and as the steps are enclosed and you cant jump off them sideways anyway it's not too much of an issue I dont think.

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Originally posted by SpletteR: yep, I was wondering, why u cut up the wall brushes on the walls with the glowing embedded "ankh" symbol like cakepieces instead of just rectangualar pieces . Actually I was wondering that on a lot of walls where i would have done just som rectangular cuts - does it save on tris in game?

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Can save tris. Can also avoid overdraw. It just a good habit to get into.

quote:

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Originally posted by SpletteR: Also If I were to build a cave, would u still try to keep ur structual brush faces flush with the detail brush faces. Or would u just make a simple structural hull behind the more complicated detail brushes that would make the cavern interior. which leads me to another question, do u just create the level once, clone it when its done, caulk the cloned level, make it structural and simplify it and then position it agin so u have ur structural hull, or do u really create everything twice??

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For a Cave I would proably have a simple caulk box as the hull with the cave inside. Never done a cave though!

The hull is a lot simpler than the detail work so it is built seperatly. Also there is the clipping 'hull' as well so it's not 2 times its 3! All slightly differnt brushwork as they do different jobs. BTW building the Hull and doing the clipping dosn't take long as you have the detail work as a guide. Few hours for the whole map I would say.

quote:

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Originally posted by SpletteR: Also on that explosion pic of the beam structure: if u were to have a pillar under the big hor. beam, would u make some more caulked detail brushes (1 textured side down) like the "C" brushes then, that u would overlap just like "A" and "C"

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B is the brush with the texture facing down. I would chop that in 2 and have a gap for the pillar. I almost built it that way but decided it played better without pillars.

Not sure what you mean on the rotating. I cloned and rotated lots of stuff on the map! Seems ok.

posted 02-20-2002 05:40 AM           

Why is it that you can overlap textured brushes and the texture doesn't disappear in game. Every time I put caulk of the hull overlapping a detail textured brush the face is caulk, not the textured brush, causing the HOM effect...
This always happens, and i'm wondering why sometimes you can put caulk over a textured face and it stays there, and other times it turns into caulk.

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Originally posted by eskimo roll: I was under the impression that it's bad to overlap brushes as it increases the compile time, is that right? and if so is that the only reason that you shouldn't. I can see the advantages of overlapping them (Snugness and better visblocking), as well as neat brush construction.

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I recal reading that as well. But given that this map compiles in 4-5 mins including light (-fast -cheap) I think that we can ignore that advise. Just dont overlap textured faces.

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Originally posted by Aramique: Argh...bugeer it I've held in this question for long enough... Why is it that you can overlap textured brushes and the texture doesn't disappear in game. Every time I put caulk of the hull overlapping a detail textured brush the face is caulk, not the textured brush, causing the HOM effect... This always happens, and i'm wondering why sometimes you can put caulk over a textured face and it stays there, and other times it turns into caulk.

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Well as long as the textured face is on the same plane as the caulk face it will be rendered. From what I sw of your map a lot of the faces were not on the grid and were at all sorts of wierd angles. Drop a single caulk brush over that and it would extend past some of it and HOM would be the result. The caulk needs to be flush with the detail faces. Not extend past.

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Originally posted by Pathogen: Hmmm, could you make a zip of that as a tutorial so it's all nice and in one place?

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I'm looking into it

Q

posted 02-20-2002 11:31 AM           

I should get into the habit of reading readme's, 2 hours for everything is well respectable.